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Travel guide

Up to date as of January 14, 2010
(Redirected to Wikitravel:Star nominations article)

From Wikitravel

This is where we determine whether an article is ready for be classified as Star status. Even though the criteria are fairly objective, it's good to get some additional eyes to look over a page and confirm that it's ready before elevating it to Star. For reference, here's the general description, from Wikitravel:Article status:

The article is essentially complete. It meets all of the above criteria. It follows the manual of style exactly or is the exception that proves the rule. Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable. It has appropriate illustrations, such as photos and a map. Enough breadth and depth of material is presented that anyone familiar with the subject of the article would have little to point out as absent. Future changes to this kind of article would reflect changes in the subject (e.g. a museum closes, a hotel price changes, a new airport is built) more than they'd require improvements in the coverage.

Objective criteria for Star status varies depending on the kind of article it is. For more concrete guidance on this, see:

  • Wikitravel:City guide status
  • Wikitravel:Region guide status
  • Wikitravel:Country guide status
  • Wikitravel:Park guide status
  • Wikitravel:Itinerary status
  • Wikitravel:Travel topic status
  • Wikitravel:Phrasebook status

If you feel that an article currently at Star status is no longer worthy, or never was to begin with, this is also the place to nominate to de-star an article.

Star articles: Last minute checklist

  • The article must be complete — See definition above.
  • Grammar and spelling must be perfect — See definition above. Prose should be stylistically superior and effective.
  • Illustration: the article should be appropriately illustrated with pictures and a Wikitravel-style map, with all attractions marked.
  • Listings should be in alphabetical order — geographical order is also acceptable if it is deemed better.
  • No duplications: a listing should appear under one section only — if there is ambiguity, put it under the section that it most applies to.
  • Time and date formats: Use: M,Tu,W,Th,F,Sa,Su; "...daily" not "Daily..."; "midnight and noon" not "12AM and 12PM"; "AM PM" not "am pm". (Examples: "M-F noon-11PM" and "9AM-9PM daily").
  • Section introductions are not mandatory but should be present when they serve to improve a section.
  • Use "—" (mdash) for breaks in thought.
  • Use abbreviations for addresses, e.g., St, Ave, Ln, Blvd.

You can nominate any "guide" quality article you think is ready to be declared a "star". Please do not nominate an article if you know that it falls short of the criterion above — refer to the info box for a last minute checklist. If there are other nominations on this page, add yours to the bottom of the list. The basic format of a nomination is as follows:

===[[Article name]]===
This has everything we're looking for,
plus a swell kitchen sink. ~~~~

Having done this, please replace the {{guide...}} tag with

{{starnomination}}

at the bottom of the nominated article. You also need to post a note at the Wikitravel:Travellers' Pub to publicize your nomination — remember to tell people that partial critiques and even just a few quick words of support are welcome. These steps help draw attention to the article's nomination, improving the discussion as to whether it should be awarded star status.

Discuss

Please comment on whether you agree that the nominated article is ready, with a bullet point (*) and your signed opinion. If you think it's ready, a simple "Support" will do. If not, explain what you think is missing or not up to standards. You don't have to leave a detailed critique to vote on the star — partial critiques are welcome, and feel free to just voice your support for the hard work someone else has done.

===[[Article name]]===
This has everything we're looking for, plus a swell kitchen sink.  TravelNut 25:25, 31 Feb 2525 (EDT)
* The sink isn't properly formatted, and there are no "budget" places to sleep. ~~~~

After three weeks of discussion, if a consensus is reached, then that an article becomes a star, and the discussion should be archived. Note that a consensus means that all outstanding objections should have been addressed and dropped; if issues remain then the discussion should either continue or, if they cannot or will not be addressed in reasonable time, the article should be added to the slush pile. Regardless of the outcome, it is useful to copy the nomination discussion to the article's talk page.

Nominations for Star status

For an archive of previous successful nominations please see Wikitravel:Star nominations/Archives.

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Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Long Beach Simon's Town

Motivation: This is the first dive site to reach the stage where star nomination is appropriate (by my criteria), so I have nominated it to get feedback so that a standard can be set for dive sites. This site is reasonably typical of one of a range of site types. Pbsouthwood 13:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

My proposed criteria for star status for a dive site follow:

→ Moved to Talk page (Stefan)

Some edits have been done to keep formatting in line with modifications to Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle, also a star nomination at this time, and which has has far more attention. Also a few content improvements. Still waiting for a direct comment on this one though. Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:21, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Question: Are the points on the map designating the points of interest talked about in the article or do they simply designate the perimeter of the dive site? The reason I ask is that if they designate certain sites, like the Ferro concrete yacht wreck, it may be nice to have the site written on the map by its associated dot. I'm not a diver, so if it is not useful, then just ignore this. ChubbyWimbus 13:22, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Teaching English

This was nominated some time back and rejected. It would have been our first star travel topic, and one of the issues was that we weren't entirely clear on criteria for a star topic. The same issue may come up for the dive site topics.

Some of the other issues raised in the earlier rejection have been addressed. Others, like not being "complete" in a sense that requires a book, have been ignored. Is it ready now? Pashley 21:46, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

Some of Gorilla Jones' concerns do not seem to have been addressed, but I think he made some valid points. This article doesn't offer much for those actually teaching it, nor does it offer much comparative information between countries/regions. I also think this article has an Asia focus that the title does not imply. There are scattered references to the Middle East and Europe, but a lot more could be said about these, I imagine. Latin America is on the list as a "popular" place for teaching English yet if I am considering doing this in Latin America, the article doesn't offer me much (absolutely nothing specific about this supposedly popular choice). If I am considering teaching English in Africa, the article is definitely not going to help. I think most people do end up in Asia, but the article should still mention the full scope of possibilities, because "Teaching English" is done elsewhere. Including these atypical destinations would also put our guide above most others, that are also focused around China, Japan, and Korea. ChubbyWimbus 02:21, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
A few observations:
  1. Does the article have to provide much for those actually teaching? There are links to sites which presumably do just that. What information for people actually teaching would be considered appropriate?
  2. Requiring equal representation for all possible places where English may be taught by a traveller might be an excessive requirement, and perhaps would prevent the article from ever reaching star status. One possible way around this might be to have the main article "Teaching English", and regional sub articles. In this way the main article could be rated a star if at least one region is a star. Also it might be useful to the user if it is split into regions.
  3. Is "Teaching English" the best title? A large number of teachers of English do it with no connection to travelling except their daily commute. OK, I realise that this is Wikitravel and anything in it will automatically be assumed to have some connection with travel, but there may be a better title. Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:55, 3 November 2009 (EST)
Well, it is called "Teaching English", so it's not a stretch to think that someone might expect to find pointers and suggestions for those already teaching it. As far as number 2 is concerned, I think it is completely reasonable to expect an article to cover the topic fully in order to be a star, and no article is entitled to star status. If no one adds information about Latin America, Africa, Middle East, or Europe, then I don't see why it should be a star. If the New York City article only mentioned Manhattan, would we call it a star? If star status articles are supposed to be the best guide Wikitravel (or any source) could offer on a particular subject, then I don't think we can expect this article to ever be a star if we make assumptions about where people do or should teach English. I'm not sure if splitting it by region/continent/country would be better or not. ChubbyWimbus 19:10, 3 November 2009 (EST)
I've rewritten the "Destinations" section and made a few changes elsewhere to better cover other places. Comments? Pashley 06:48, 5 November 2009 (EST)
Hi ChubbyWimbus,
  1. Your first point and my third point relate. If it had a different title which did not imply that information for people already teaching English should be expected, then that requirement would disappear. I am not advocating such a change, just pointing it out as an option. I dont know or care enough about the subject to have strong opinions on the content.
  2. My point is that it should be reasonably practicable for any article to be improved to star status if it is intended for this to be a target. If the idea is that only some classes of article can have the potential to become stars that is different. Technically, requiring that an article is complete may mean that it is complete regardless of the status of sub-articles or other articles lower in the geographical hierarchy, or that the status of subordinate articles is a criterion. This appears to be the case for regions, countries etc, where if I understand correctly, a significant portion of the subordinate articles must be at star or guide level for the high level article to be considered. This is reasonable, as requiring all subordinate articles to be star or guide would make it almost impossible for any other than the lowest level to gain and retain star status. I dont suggest that all non-star subordinate articles be deleted from mention, just that at least some percentage other than all should be required to be at star and guide level. -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 01:10, 8 November 2009 (EST)

The added information about the broader scope of options has definitely improved the article, but I wonder if this needs some sort of discussion about what people want this article to be? Is this article targeted at those wanting to teach English, those already teaching it, or both? How in-depth does everyone imagine this article should go at its best? ChubbyWimbus 20:51, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Copenhagen

With all the sub-districts at guide status, and at long last some finished history and literature sections, I thought I would give the main article a go at a star nomination. As usual my pitiful written English are likely to shine through in places, spiced up with a few Danglicisms here and there, but overall I feel the prose should be just about adequate, any help on that front will of course be much appreciated.

Critique is more than welcome, and I realize the tour section might be a bit controversial but I stand by those two listings, with their academic credentials - I do not believe that any guidebook, or lone meandering, could fulfil the substance of those tours, but this is of course all open for discussion.

Anyway, fire away and I'll see what I can do about it. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 20:00, 26 November 2009 (EST)

A very good article and one I had read before this nomination. Stefan, I have started a bit of a proof-read, have made some minor grammatical and spelling corrections and will continue later. I guess English must be your 2nd language at best and I have to say your written English expression is quite excellent. The thought of even attempting to write at this level in any language other than my native tongue completely terrifies me! --Burmesedays 21:32, 26 November 2009 (EST)
You will need I think to standardise currency codes and expression. So far I have found 6 different versions. The country article uses the format DKK 100 which slightly surprises me given WT aversion to official currency codes. I thought it would (and should) be just Kr, always expressed as Kr 100 and not 100 Kr. --Burmesedays 00:25, 27 November 2009 (EST)
I know, been putting it off for a while, but I'll get it done - if we settle for kr. I think it should be 100 kr., since that's the version used locally. And thanks a bunch for all that hard work on the grammar and spelling!
One question though, in the history section I had written not a bad place to found a city trying to convey 'establish', not 'find' as it was changed to, Is there anything wrong with using 'found'? --Stefan (sertmann) talk 11:04, 27 November 2009 (EST)
Oh! My gaff and apologies. Found is OK in that context, although many readers would make the same error as me. I would use either "..establish..." or "...lay the foundations for...".
No problem with helping out with a bit of proofing. It will need doing again though with a hard copy. I was reading on screen which is a sure way to miss things. Also, have a loot at the S-Tog section where the "C however" bit of the 3rd sentence defeated me - not sure what you mean there. I like the style of this article a lot by the way. --Burmesedays 11:17, 27 November 2009 (EST)
Back to English lessons: User:Army_of_me: "I like it, however i don't understand the "whiskey belt" reference in the Northern sububs summary, also the last sentence in the Wonderful Copenhagen infobox is a bit unclear"
"Whiskey belt" dates back to the less wealthy version of Denmark in the 1970'ties, "Whiskey" - because the residents here can afford/prefer to drink Whiskey rather than Carlsbergs (beers) like the rest of the populace , and they are generally old enough to - and off a social class which - appreciate a fine glass of single malt. "Belt" - possibly Danglish, but used in the same sense as the rust belt, the bible belt etc.
HAH vs HAY, not sure why this is unclear, old Danny pronounces Copenhagen like this, not an uncommon mistake among English speakers, it's pronounced more like this lass does.
Suggestions on how to make all this more clear are welcome. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 04:36, 28 November 2009 (EST)
I think Hah vs Hay is a nice touch and a cute way to explain the point. I would leave it be. On the whiskey (if single malt is the go, you really ought to spell it whisky, the Scottish way) belt, I got the implication but it is a wee bit obscure I guess. You could emphasise the meaning. Something like "...the well-heeled whisky belt...". --Burmesedays 06:16, 28 November 2009 (EST)
The "Whiskey Belt" thing makes sense now with your explanation (the connection between whiskey and "well-heeled" people, that is) - perhaps that link is more obvious to Europeans; I'm an American and it was a non sequitur to me (as a side-note, I'm reading your article as someone totally unfamiliar with Copenhagen or Denmark, although perhaps someone interested in their first visit ;).
As for the "Wonderful Copenhagen" infobox thing, I apologize as my statement was totally ambiguous. I like the bit about the HAY vs HAH (it was actually educational for me); the "unclear" aspect is earlier in that sentence: "Sung by Danny Kaye it's somewhat of an evergreen, and not accustomed to Hollywood attention the city has stuck to it ever since...". I probably shouldn't have said "unclear"; for me, the issue is more of a grammatical or structural nature - it could perhaps use a bit of fine-tuning (not that I'm an expert on such things); the sentence overall just seems a bit unwieldy to me. I will try to be more precise with my words in the future. :) Army of me 02:51, 29 November 2009 (EST)
Oh, and it's a Support from me, by the way. I thought the article was very well written overall (those very minor quibbles I mentioned aside). Army of me 18:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)

What is the deal with Christiania? It's not in the district list, but it is an established article (and is listed under Copenhagen, but the name isn't Copenhagen/Christiania?). Should it be incorporated in another district or become a district of it's own? And also, it's still at usable status, which means it should be bumped up to guide if Copenhagen wants to be a star article. Globe-trotter 11:03, 30 November 2009 (EST)

Very good spot GT. The structure is a bit awry in regard to this as Christiania is actually listed as an attraction in Copenhagen/Christianshavn. I would suggest that it needs to be a sub-district of Copenhagen/Christianshavn rather than linked from the top level Copenhagen article. Would that make sense? --Burmesedays 05:23, 1 December 2009 (EST)
It's an unusual situation, for an unusual place - It's not really a district in line with the others, and it's not really merely an attraction either. I'm still contemplating on the best way of dealing with it, it just felt a bit weird not wikilinking it, since it has it's own article, and is the 2nd biggest tourist attraction in the city. I think I'll just de-link it from the lead article, until I figure out how to finish the damn thing. I've directed the breadcrumbs to Christianshavn instead, which I believe is the most appropriate. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 21:26, 1 December 2009 (EST)
I'll get to the full critique soon enough, but I do think Christiania should be treated as a district, with the appropriate Copenhagen/Christiania title. I recognize it's the "freetown," but from a travel perspective we can and should treat it as part of the city that surrounds it (we even do this for a separate nation, Rome/Vatican). It should be elevated to guide status before we star Copenhagen. (I'm surprised I didn't notice this in advance!)
I'm inclined to hope for a quick elevation, so that we don't disrupt the starnom process for Copenhagen. If you need help figuring out how to handle the article, lets discuss at Talk:Christiania / Talk:Copenhagen/Christiania. I have at least a bit of knowledge of this weird little place ;) --Peter Talk 21:49, 1 December 2009 (EST)
Well, it's not so much the "freetown" status, as my mental map of the city in the way here. To me it would look weird to have Christiania listed as a district in line with the others. Christiania is on Christianshavn, and is a great part of it's soul. I also remember considering merging those two, but I don't think that would work well either. So actually I'm pretty happy with the way it is.
I don't object to the notion that it should be guide status first, though, I have a really hard time getting my head around how to get it up there. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 13:05, 2 December 2009 (EST)
I put in a link under Christianshavn's description—the color coded district list doesn't have to be a literal list of each district—neither Chicago#Districts nor Washington, D.C.#Districts is. I've put up a few suggestions as to how to improve the article at Talk:Copenhagen/Christiania. --Peter Talk 14:24, 2 December 2009 (EST)
I am not really getting this as the logic of the article is surely that Christiania a district of Copenhagen/Christianshavn? In the same way that Greenwich Village is a district of Manhattan which is a region of New York City? Copenhagen-->Chrisianhavn-->Christiania = New York City-->Manhattan-->Greenwich Village (as an example). Or am I missing something? --Burmesedays 08:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)
Yes, but we try to avoid three-level hierarchies like that when we can, and it's one reason we converted Manhattan into a city article instead of the district article New York City/Manhattan. LtPowers 11:13, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Stefan, I had today a brief look on the article and missed one very famous spot in the proximity of CPH the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Museum_of_Modern_Art which i really like to visit when i'm in DK. I think we should at least mention it in the art/museum or the Get out section. I think it's one of the best museums. Regards, jan 12:14, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Louisiana is not really in Copenhagen, but about an hour away up on the Øresund Coast. The Zealand articles are sort-of on the back-burner at the moment, but when they get more complete I plan on adding them to the get out section. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 12:56, 3 December 2009 (EST)
I know that Louisiana is not in CPH but imho it should be mentioned because it is really outstanding. I will add it in the Get out section now and work a bit on it because everyone who is more than three days in CPH should visit it. jan 03:14, 4 December 2009 (EST)

Christiania is fixed. And while it shifts position a lot at the moment, currently Copenhagen is the number 4 search result, for one of the most used search terms on google at the moment - Copenhagen was the number 3 "hot search" on Google trends yesterday. Pretty cool. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 03:25, 15 December 2009 (EST)

Yeah, clearly featuring the destination at a time of Googular prominence was a good thing for Wikitravel! We should continue doing that.
  • Almost support. I love our Copenhagen guide, and am looking forward to seeing it become a star. I just gave the article a very thorough proofing, and a few issues jumped out:
  1. ? I don't understand the usage of "inflation" in the phrase, "Danish design has been a victim of inflation over the years."
  2. ✓ It would be good to get precise dates, insofar as is possible, for the events section for 2010.
  3. ? How are Danish phone numbers supposed to be formatted? Wikitravel:Phone numbers advises to use dashes between the numbers you would need to dial if making a local call within the city.
  4. ✓ Brunch listings should be moved out of the article, and the section converted to prose. If these recommendations should be included in the main article, they should be mentioned in prose sans listing as the Michelin starred restaurants are in the section above. (And they should be formatted with Wikitravel:Listings, once moved to the appropriate district articles.)
  5. ✓ Ditto Gay & Lesbian section.
  6. ? Not necessary, but I'd recommend removing emails from the Embassy list—they take up a lot of space and are a bit of an eyesore. I'd actually take out the hours too, since you'll almost always need to contact your embassy to arrange an approved visit (at least that was true when I worked in an Embassy). I know these removals would be painful, though, given the tedious work that their initial addition required!
And that's it! --Peter Talk 23:52, 17 December 2009 (EST)
My objections have been met, full and happy support from me. --Peter Talk 15:32, 14 January 2010 (EST)
1. So many companies that has little do with what Danish design is are using it (like this one), that the "brand" value has been waning for years, to a point where some top companies like FritzHansen[1] have stopped advertising themselves as Danish altogether, caused quite the uproar when they announced it a couple of years back.
3. I've used local formatting, perhaps due to our very modest size, there is no such thing as local calls here - You always dial 8 digits.
6. As for the Embassy list I'll think about a bit - the hours are for the consular divisions; visa applications and stuff like that, where you don't need an appointment. I read the email comment on the London talk page too, but I really don't think they look that bad, hmmmm.
I'll get to work on the other ones --Stefan (sertmann) talk 04:49, 18 December 2009 (EST)
on "inflation", perhaps you could use instead 'demeaned'. 'devalued' or 'abused' which may better communicate the point. --Burmesedays 05:05, 18 December 2009 (EST)

So how does this one stand? Do you have any unfinished work Stefan? Are there any remaining objections from anybody? --Burmesedays 02:50, 2 January 2010 (EST)

Was breaking my neck on that brunch section, but finally came up with something interesting, rather than just bland uninteresting stuff, it could probably use a skim by a native speaker, as I'm happy with the content, but not quite happy with the language, without being able to figure out exactly what's wrong. I'd also like to hear some second opinions on the embassy section, as I'm quite happy with it, but also prepared to change it if it's a general complaint - though, this probably wouldn't get in the way of a promotion. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 19:57, 6 January 2010 (EST)
  • I had a go at the brunch section for you. If you do not approve, please revert. The opening sentence though really had to be changed :).
  • Embassies. From my comments which you saw regarding London, you will not be surprised to hear that I do not like the email addresses. It looks messy. I do not have feelings either way about the opening hours and would suggest leaving them if the removal hurts too much.
  • Generally, I will give the article another proofread later today (the last time seems months ago now!). If this one gets the same beating with the grammar stick as Bali though, I fear we are in for quite some wait.--Burmesedays 22:56, 6 January 2010 (EST)
    • "Beating with the grammar stick"? LtPowers 08:18, 7 January 2010 (EST)

So if I remove the emails, are there any outstanding objections to this one? last call everyone. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 09:30, 14 January 2010 (EST)

  • Support Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:32, 14 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support. One final suggestion would be a sleeppricerange table. --Burmesedays 11:41, 14 January 2010 (EST)

Singapore/Riverside

There's not any of my work in this one, but just looking at this district makes me feel like it's on star status. It has plenty of listings, is nicely formatted and has some great maps. Globe-trotter 09:49, 7 December 2009 (EST)

I will have a thorough read tomorrow but the article looks great. At first glance I am not sure the maps show every listing. That needs checking. --Burmesedays 11:44, 11 December 2009 (EST)
  • Not quite. It's a pretty good article, but there are still some issues. One is some problems in the Eat and Drink sections - a lot of those listings are missing phone numbers and hours, and I see one that's not properly formatted. Also, the Do section seems rather small...is that really all there is to Do here? The Get in section is also looking a little shrimpy. Overall it's a great article, but I can't say it's a star yet. PerryPlanet Talk 19:20, 14 December 2009 (EST)
  • I added the missing telephone numbers of the Buy, Drink, Eat and Sleep sections, except for Lau Pa Sat (food stall market) and Yong Bak Kut Teh (I found it on Google Street View, but cannot find it's telephone number anywhere online. It seemed so small, maybe it doesn't have any. I also fixed the bad listing. About the hours: that's a bit harder to fulfill, it's hard to find the opening hours online for some of the listings. Globe-trotter 18:21, 15 December 2009 (EST)
Had a closer look and very nearly I would say. A few points:
  • The map has no scale on it.
  • The map needs updating as a number of listings are not on there.
  • Sleep section needs a price range table or is it enough that there is one in the parent city guide?
  • On opening hours for restaurants and bars. These are generally a bit of problem in Asia as they tend to be a moveable feast. Singapore might be a bit more reliable on that front though.
  • A hotel I have used a lot here in the past, Swisshotel Stamford, is on the map but not listed.--Burmesedays 05:23, 18 December 2009 (EST)

London/Hampstead

To those watching recent changes, it is probably no surprise that I am nominating Hampstead for star guide status. I think the article is up to the required standard, but I should make a few comments:

  • The eat and drink listings are either places I know myself, or they were added to the article before I started work on it. There are a huge number more that could be added, but that would devalue the article I believe.
  • This is not a district with too many sleep options, and I have added the most interesting of them, avoiding a couple of identikit chain hotels which are present in the south of the district.
  • Likewise with buy listings. All high street chains have been avoided, although I have briefly mentioned some of them in the prose.
  • I realise that a couple of the attractions listed for Hampstead Heath in the see section are really activities, and belong in do. I thought it made most sense though to deal with all of Hampstead Heath in one section.
  • This is a fairly OtBP part of London (surprisingly so) and above all else, the article is intended to encourage more visitors by highlighting the more unique attractions of the district.

All comments and criticisms are of course welcomed. --Burmesedays 02:50, 2 January 2010 (EST)

Without having read through carefully, a few things should be addressed:
  • See, buy, and drink need section introductions, and it would be nice to see a little bit more guidance for eat as well. If looking for inspiration, I think Chicago/Hyde_Park has pretty good examples.
  • "Get around" is not a standard part of the Wikitravel:District article template (although that has been challenged), and I think this information could easily be swept into Get in/By bus, making the whole of the transport info more succinct.
  • Images should be right aligned and, ideally, spread throughout the entire article (they don't have to be right next to the relevant section).
  • The intro is bland and says nothing—it needs at least a short paragraph summarizing what the place is and why travelers come here. If it's helpful, this traveler went there for the nice neighborhood vibe, the Heath, Keats, and the art at the Kenwood House. --Peter Talk 11:29, 2 January 2010 (EST)
Thank you Peter. Response.
  • See, buy, eat and drink intros: either done or expanded.
  • I would really like to keep the Get around bus info. This gives quite a level of detail for two buses that are convenient hop-on hop-off services for moving between some important attractions. These bus routes bear no relation to getting in to the district.
  • Images. No problem with right aligning them all (done), but is that a guideline? With Bali for example, we deliberately split alignment of images. In some cases a right-left mix, used sparingly, really improves the look of an article. I have spread them out a bit, but we need to be sensible about this I think. An image close to the text talking about the same subject is lot more helpful to the traveller than spacing them evenly.
  • Introduction, done. I should have remembered the need for this from previous discussions, even if I do disagree :)
  • One thing I do need to do is abbreviate more of the road names (I have only done "Rd" so far). I think this is horrible use of language and downright ugly, but it is style policy and will be done :).
Please have another look and comment further. --Burmesedays 00:32, 3 January 2010 (EST)
Regarding the get around information, I'm not at all suggesting that you remove that information, just that it could be moved to the get in section, which would bring it in line with our district template. --Peter Talk 11:25, 3 January 2010 (EST)
I could, I just don't really want to as the scope of the information is completely unrelated to getting in to the district. The district template does not include understand (!), cope or stay safe sections as standard either...... --Burmesedays 11:31, 3 January 2010 (EST)
I didn't see anyone who thought Get Around was always unnecessary. Just because it's not in the template doesn't mean it can't be used if there's useful information to put there. I agree with you that information irrelevant to getting in doesn't belong in the Get In section. LtPowers 19:59, 3 January 2010 (EST)

Some comments and queries:

  1. Understand: What is a grade II listed building?
  2. District map: Perhaps some indication of what the surrounding areas are?
  3. Get in: No comment, looks fine.
  4. Get around: Looks useful. I vote to keep.
  5. See: Quality good, unable to comment on completeness. Image of Pergola is left aligned, but looks good there to me. What is a Site of Special Scientific Interest, and why is this of interest to the visitor?
  6. Do: seems rather limited, but maybe that's just how it is.
  7. Buy: OK
  8. Eat: Gastro pub? New one on me.
  9. Drink: Holly bush - a bit touty?
  10. Sleep: OK
  11. Contact: OK
  12. Stay safe: OK
  13. Cope: Is a local newspaper appropriate in Cope?
  14. Get out: OK
  15. Comprehensive? No idea. Never been there. If this is comprehensive, I dont see that the lack of certain items should hold back an article which otherwise meets the criteria. It shouldnt need to be big to be good.
  16. Proprtly formatted? Looks good, but may have missed things...
  17. Well written? Yes, though I dont much like sentences ending in "though". (:-/) The article seems useful and balanced, but not particularly inspiring. I wouldnt plan a trip to go there specifically, but might well feel inclined to take a day off in the area to relax if in London. This may well be entirely appropriate for the destination.
This brings up the philisophical point: Is the star for the article or the destination? If the star is to indicate the quality of the article (an opinion that I support), then this is pretty close to star quality for me.
Peter (Southwood) Talk 10:47, 9 January 2010 (EST)
Thanks so much Peter. Excellent feedback. Let me try to address the outstanding points.
Listed buildings in Britain. This may or may not be covered in the country article (it should be). A listed building is protected and the grades imply the level of protection/importance. A grade II building is highly protected and the fact I give about Hampstead in this respect is notable. All is revealed here. Not sure if this should be explained in a district article? Rather at the country level?
Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI). Likewise really. But I will delete that I think.
I will tone down the Holly Bush. All that is true though. It is my favourite pub :).
Do is indeed limited. It is very much a "see" district (particularly when some of the possible activities are included with Hampstead Heath in the see section).
Gastro pub. Is that not widely understood? It may be peculiarly British.
Local newspapers belong in Cope, yes. See where you can stick it. This one is several cuts above the normal local newspaper rubbish and should be listed I think.
I would not recommend anyone making a special trip to Hampstead. Rather, as I tried to convey, it is an interesting place for a day or two when you are in London (especially so for literary types). I believe that stars are surely for the article, not the destination.
It is comprehensive I am sure, with the caveats I made in the inital nomination post above. --Burmesedays 11:26, 9 January 2010 (EST)
Listed buildings Perhaps a link for those who dont know?
Holly Bush If its true then OK. Just looked a bit like owner input.
Gastro pub I dont think I have seen the expression before. It is probably what it seems to be: a pub with good food, but I like to think I am moderately well read and it is definitely unfamiliar to me. based on that, it may not be particularly meaningful to a lot of other users. Any comments from the rest of you?
Map I still think the map would be improved by naming the neighbouring suburbs. I agree that the minor roads outside are not needed.
That all being settled, gets my Support Peter (Southwood) Talk 15:13, 11 January 2010 (EST)
Gastro pub is widely used in descriptions and everyday speech in the UK nowadays—it's an essential term for travel there, I'd say. It does of course need to be covered in the country articles, since the term isn't widely known outside of the Isles, and I believe it is at United Kingdom#Pub and in several places in the England article. --Peter Talk 15:48, 11 January 2010 (EST)
The country article is the place for explanation of terms I think. I have done so with listed building and wikilinked to it. I will have a look at naming the surrounding districts on the map. --Burmesedays 20:51, 11 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support Liking it, and not much wrong here but a few minor caveats:
The zips bothers a bit (I don't understand the system so to me they are useless in the first place, however I'm sure they'd be useful to some, but...) when I read the addresses my eyes sort of stumble onto the post code, before I realize it's not part of the address, if that makes any sense - would a comma rather than space separation (which is already done in a few of the listings) make sense?
Many listings are "housenumberless" i.e. Camden Arts Centre, Fenton House, Hampstead Parish Church and Keats House - is that because they have no numbers? due to the neat postcode system? or what's the deal?
And then two personal requests; Reading about the place and being a Dane, it strikes me as a wonderful place to explore on bike - Tried searching for bike hires in Hampstead, couldn't find any, but if you know of a place, please add :) 2nd - I know this is England, but are there no pubs/bars/clubs at all, that's open after midnight? --Stefan (sertmann) talk 12:45, 9 January 2010 (EST)
Thanks Stefan and I am pleased you like the article. Response:
  • Post codes are an integral part of life in Britain. They are building specific (you can post a letter with only the post code on the front and it will get to the right house). I believe they have great benefit for the traveller in these days of SatNavs and online locaters. No easier way to pinpoint a building location. A comma could be inserted. I have just followed the format used with the embassies table in the London article. We dont put a comma between the street number and the street name though for example. Please lets make a decision on the need for a comma or not here as it effects every single British article.
  • Sometimes major buildings in England have no street numbers but I will check those you mention.
  • Yep, not bad for for cycling (although it is a very hilly district). There are no bike rental places I know of in the district.
  • There are only pubs in Hampstead and no bars or clubs other than some very seedy members only places on the western fringes of West Hampstead. This is not a nightlife district (far too refined!). Many late bars and clubs in neighbouring Camden (I will mention that). Thanks again. --Burmesedays 23:46, 9 January 2010 (EST)

I think I have now addressed all points raised so far and edited the article as necessary. The outstanding issue is comma before a post code or not. --Burmesedays 09:34, 10 January 2010 (EST)

(I'd prefer not to, only because I don't want to have to go back and change all the existing listings without a comma...) --Peter Talk 15:51, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Support, with note that I think the streets on the map should not stop at the end of the district. I also think the headers at the Drink section is a bit confusing.. First it says "Hampstead", why first I was thinking "isn't this all Hampstead?". Maybe it should be turned into Hampstead proper or something, and then change "Others" in "Other neighborhoods" or something similar. --globe-trotter 18:15, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Thanks GT and I will fix the drink section. I can see how that would be confusing to somebody who does not know the district. This will come up a lot in London where we use a large district name which is the same as a small neighbourhood within that district.
On streets and boundary edges. I know Peter feels the same way about that. My view is that showing the major routes into the district is more appropriate (which I have done) and a detailed street grid should only be for the area that the map is intended to cover. I think I am in the minority there though. And if I do say it myself, I think this particular map is a good one :). --Burmesedays 22:03, 10 January 2010 (EST)
I agree that minor roads need not be shown outside of the district boundaries. See what I did on the map of downtown Rochester (New York), perhaps doing something like that would make the distinction more clear? LtPowers 09:36, 11 January 2010 (EST)
I like that effect a lot. I did similar with the London Bloomsbury map but used yellow. Your diffusion layer is probably nicer looking. --Burmesedays 11:05, 11 January 2010 (EST)
We might want to move this bit of the discussion to Wikitravel talk:How to draw a map. I certainly wouldn't say we need to have streets mapped outside the district, but I think it is straightforwardly desirable. We don't want travelers using our maps to fall into a void after crossing a district/city boundary, and they also offer very useful context to understanding how one district fits with its surroundings. --Peter Talk 14:05, 11 January 2010 (EST)

Have added surrounding neighbourhood labels to the map. Any other comments please? --Burmesedays 08:56, 14 January 2010 (EST)

Chicago/Southwest Side

A question arose recently regarding what a big outlying district article should ideally look like. I actually was not nominating this article precisely because I thought that type of article was a little too strange to serve as a template for most articles, but now that this type of article is more prevalent, perhaps it would be nice to have a star to look to. I know this area inside and out, and have actually visited every listing aside from the hotel and library lists. Where sections look thin, like "do" and "buy," it really is because there isn't much of interest to list there. I'm pretty sure this article meets the requirements, and have felt that way for some time—I just didn't have the motivation to nominate it. --Peter Talk 19:16, 6 January 2010 (EST)

  • Support. Very well written, perfect formatting and definitely an inspiration for other difficult large city districts. --Burmesedays 10:09, 7 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support. Once again, the Chicago Juggernaut provides an inspiration for us all. A couple of things: Linda's Lounge is missing hours and Holiday Inn Express needs a phone number - other than that, all good; I especially love the pictures of the food. PerryPlanet Talk 11:21, 7 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support. No opinion on accuracy or completeness as I know nothing about the area, but the article looks good. One jarring detail is the apparently random variation between Union Stock Yard and Union Stockyard, but there may be a good reason for this?. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) Talk 04:12, 9 January 2010 (EST)
There are some very minute and easily correctable things that I noticed:
  • "In the southeast are a couple of far-flung African-American neighborhoods." (Understand section) Does this just mean the neighborhoods are on the far outer edges of the city/area?
  • "The big sights on the Southwest Side are the Union Stockyard Gate. Period. And even that is a pretty small attraction for how out of the way it is." (See section) The grammar seems a bit odd. Is the Union Stockyard Gate just one attraction/place or are the "sights" referenced within the yard? Should it be, "The big sight on the SS is the USG"? (making it singular) I think this is the case, because it is referred to as "that" in the next section rather than "those". If not, then perhaps it should be "The big sights on the SS are in the Union Stockyard Gate"?
  • Why is the Chicago Blues Museum closed? Is it indefinite or is there a reopening date?

On a personal note, I learned from this article that it is "mother lode" rather than "mother load", which I had always assumed was the spelling. ChubbyWimbus 14:11, 9 January 2010 (EST)

I've taken care of the outstanding concerns above (and the quirky/bad grammar was intended to put humorous emphasis on the fact that there isn't much to see here, but it was probably a little too eccentric). The Blues Museum exists in the abstract, but his warehouse, by all reports full of incredibly interesting stuff, has been closed for at least two years. I think he's found more success in letting the collection tour, so the museum is in an indefinite limbo. (Incidentally, there is also the question of mother lode v. motherlode. The dictionary claims both are acceptable, and "mother lode" is the version slightly more commonly used per google [2].)
The one thing I have not been able to nail down are the hours for Linda's Place. I'm certain it was open as recent as last summer, and it's been around for decades, but their phone number is at present disconnected... If they've closed, that's a huge loss for the blues. I'd hate to remove it without solid confirmation that it is indeed closed, since I'm proud of the fact that our Chicago guide is the only guide to Chicago of any sort that has comprehensive coverage of the city's real blues clubs. But if deemed necessary, I'll remove it, since to my great disappointment I'm no longer there to just drive over to make sure (and have a drink). --Peter Talk 17:19, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Nominations to remove Star status

Whenever possible, articles should be fixed rather than "de-starred". Only nominate articles which cannot be easily elevated/restored to "star" quality. Replace the Star status tag on the article with {{destarnomination}}. Vote "Star" or "Not Star".

Failed nominations

See Wikitravel:Star nominations/Slush pile for nominations that failed or were withdrawn. Articles should only be renominated when they address criticisms from the previous nomination. Please add the {{starpotential}} to the top of the article's discussion page.


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